ProjectAlexandria

← back

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 1

United States. Constitutional Convention (recorded by James Madison) · 1787 (composed during the convention; Madison’s notes later revised) primary

passage 76 of 238 · part of the Fifth Article of the Confederation of the said > part I was extremely so, for putting my hand in my pocket I (43/72)

in brief
After votes on King’s and Wilson’s motion, the journal records apportionment by an equitable ratio later defined by the 1780s-era compromise census formula including “three fifths” of certain persons, and Gerry objects to treating “property” as the basis.

this Cong^s each Colony or province shall have one vote: The Cong^s not being possessed of or at present able to procure materials for ascertaining the importance of each Colony."

On the question for agreeing to M^r King's and M^r Wilson's motion it passed in the affirmative.

Mass^{ts} ay. C^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

It was then moved by M^r Rutlidge, 2^{ded} by M^r Butler to add to the words "equitable ratio of representation" at the end of the motion just agreed to, the words "according to the quotas of contribution." On motion of M^r Wilson seconded by M^r Pinkney, this was postponed; in order to add, after the words "equitable ratio of representation" the words following: "in proportion to the whole number of white & other free Citizens & inhabitants of every age sex & condition including those bound to servitude for a term of years and three fifths of all other persons not comprehended in the foregoing description, except Indians not paying taxes, in each State," this being the rule in the Act of Congress agreed to by eleven States, for apportioning quotas of revenue on the States, and requiring a Census only every 5, 7, or 10 years.

M^r Gerry thought property not the rule of representation. Why then sh^d the blacks, who were property in the South, be in the rule of representation more than the Cattle & horses of the North.[75]

[75] After Gerry spoke, according to Yates, "Mr. Madison was of opinion at present, to fix the standard of representation, and let the detail be the business of a sub-committee."--Secret Proceedings, p. 116.

On the question,--Mass: Con: N. Y. Pen: Mary^d Virg^a N. C. S. C. & Geo: were in the affirmative: N. J. & Del: in the negative.

M^r Sherman moved that a question be taken whether each State shall have one vote in the 2^d branch. Every thing he said depended on this. The smaller States would never agree to the plan on any other principle than an equality of suffrage in this branch. M^r Elsworth[76] seconded the motion.

[76] "M^r Elsworth is a Judge of the Supreme Court in Connecticut;--he is Gentleman of a clear, deep, and copius understanding; eloquent, and connected in public debate; and always attentive to his duty. He is very happy in a reply, and choice in selecting such parts of his adversary's arguments as he finds make the strongest impressions,--in order to take off the force of them, so as to admit the power of his own. M^r Elsworth is about 37 years of age, a Man much respected for his integrity, and venerated for his abilities."--Pierce's Notes, Am. Hist. Rev., iii., 326.

On the question for allowing each State one vote in the 2^d branch,

Mass^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. ay. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Wilson & M^r Hamilton moved that the right of suffrage in the 2^d branch ought to be according to the same rule as in the 1^{st} branch. On this question for making the ratio of representation the same in the 2^d as in the 1^{st} branch it passed in the affirmative;

Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t no. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

Resol: 11, for guarantying Republican Gov^t & territory to each State, being considered--the words "or partition," were, on motion of M^r Madison added, after the words "voluntary junction;"

Mas. N. Y. P. V^a N. C. S. C. G. ay. Con: N. J. Del: M^d no.

M^r Read disliked the idea of guarantying territory. It abetted the idea of distinct States w^{ch} would be a perpetual source of discord. There can be no cure for this evil but in doing away States altogether and uniting them all into one great Society.

← previous passage read in the full work → next passage →

topics: elections and representation · slavery and bondage · taxation, tribute, and revenue

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitut… · United States. Constitutional Convention (recorded by James Madison) · 1787