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The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitution of the United States, May-September 1787. Volume 2

United States. Constitutional Convention · 1787-07-19 to 1787-09-17 (convention debates recorded; excerpts reflect entries in the official journal as presented here) primary

passage 112 of 266 · Act to which the States by their Legislatures, make themselves parties, becomes a compact from which no one of the parties can recede of itself. > act of the ordinary legislatures to be equally authentic, (34/65)

↪ you wandered here via “overt act requirement treason” — the connecting lines are tinted below

in brief
Further treason-definition debates turn on whether “adhering” should use “and” or “or,” how to handle treason against the United States versus a particular state, and whether to follow British language.

be witnesses to the same overt act or to different overt acts. He thought also that proof of an overt act ought to be expressed as essential in the case.

Doc^r Johnson considered "giving aid & comfort" as explanatory of "adhering" & that something should be inserted in the definition concerning overt acts. He contended that Treason could not be both ag^{st} the U. States--and individual States; being an offence ag^{st} the Sovereignty which can be but one in the same community.

M^r Madison remarked that "and" before "in adhering" should be changed into "or" otherwise both offences viz. of "levying war," & of adhering to the Enemy might be necessary to constitute Treason. He added that, as the definition here was of treason against the U. S. it would seem that the individual States w^d be left in possession of a concurrent power so far as to define & punish treason particularly ag^{st} themselves; which might involve double punishm^t.

It was moved that the whole clause be recommitted which was lost, the votes being equally divided.

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. div^d. S. C. no. Geo. ay.

M^r Wilson & Doc^r Johnson moved, that "or any of them," after "United States" be struck out in order to remove the embarrassment; which was agreed to nem. con.

M^r Madison. This has not removed the embarrassment. The same Act might be treason ag^{st} the United States as here defined--and ag^{st} a particular State according to its laws.

M^r Elseworth. There can be no danger to the gen^l authority from this; as the laws of the U. States are to be paramount.

Doc^r Johnson was still of opinion there could be no Treason ag^{st} a particular State. It could not even at present, as the Confederation now stands, the Sovereignty being in the Union; much less can it be under the proposed system.

Col. Mason. The United States will have a qualified sovereignty only. The individual States will retain a part of the Sovereignty. An Act may be treason ag^{st} a particular State which is not so ag^{st} the U. States. He cited the Rebellion of Bacon in Virginia as an illustration of the doctrine.

Doc^r Johnson: That case would amount to Treason ag^{st} the Sovereign, the Supreme Sovereign, the United States.

M^r King observed that the controversy relating to Treason might be of less magnitude than was supposed; as the Legislature might punish capitally under other names than Treason.

M^r Gov^r Morris and M^r Randolph wished to substitute the words of the British Statute and moved to postpone Sect 2. art VII in order to consider the following substitute--"Whereas it is essential to the preservation of liberty to define precisely and exclusively what shall constitute the crime of Treason, it is therefore ordained, declared & established, that if a man do levy war ag^{st} the U. S. within their territories, or be adherent to the enemies of the U. S. within the said territories, giving them aid and comfort within their territories or elsewhere, and thereof be provably attainted of open deed by the people of his condition, he shall be adjudged guilty of Treason."

On this question

N. H.--Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. no. M^d no. V^a ay. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

It was then moved to strike out "ag^{st} United States" after "treason" so as to define treason generally, and on this question

Mass. ay. C^t ay. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

It was then moved to insert after "two witnesses" the words "to the same overt act."

Doc^r Franklin wished this amendment to take place. prosecutions for treason were generally virulent; and perjury too easily made use of against innocence.

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topics: crime and punishment · justice as a virtue

The Journal of the Debates in the Convention which Framed the Constitut… · United States. Constitutional Convention · 1787